City
Another Cosmic Christmas Moment
The ion beams that flow through the connected series of tubes that make up the internet aligned once again today as I found myself shaking hands with a man who moments earlier had been calling me a fascist and a terrorist supporter! It was Narvey! In the flesh! There we were, standing in the pouring snain talking calmly about meeting up for coffee after we had just exchanged words with only Hastings Street and the VPD separating us. He said something about terrorism and I said something about King David Hotel. It was only later as Kris Krug crossed the street to shake hands with a familiar face did it click. I started to recall the post that started our inter-spat so long ago and made the connection.
And this is why, despite my constant disappointment with our leaders and the tyranny of our economic system, I am proud to be Canadian. I completely and fundamentally think Jonathan's support of Israel is racist, imperialistic, and in opposition to world law; but as I stuttered to him in the pounding hail, I'd fight for his right to speak them. We talked a little bit about the fight and about art, then I crossed back over and joined in a chant or two of "End the Occupation Now" before returning home.
It shows the level of maturity and diversity of most Vancouver Bloggers. People like Michael Klassen and Vancity Guy with whom I often disagree can coexist peacefully on the internet. Sure there's bound be anonymous trolls, but for the most part there's a sort of leveling off that occurs. What matters is that there is discussion, wherein the corporate newspapers would rather protect their interests than offer up any meaningful examination on the issue.
Peace in the Middle East, and in the Downtown East. May the New Year be the one where we collectively figure it the fuck out.
Discussion
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haha... great photo. much love you guys!
Discussion and debate (even heated) are good, healthy and a whole whack-o-fun if people keep their senses of humor as healthy as their tempers.
It's bloggers like Dag at CovenantZone who have to be watched. The pseudo National Socialist's are the bugger's that scare me, not the APC, (besides, the anarchists can't ever get organized)
Yes but the Israeli supporters, although representing a small part of the population and worldwide opinion, are hyper-organized as well. Like the women in the video says, they have thousand-dollar-a-plate fundraisers with corporate donations. It seems to me like the anti-thesis of blogging to me.
There is no ‘righteousness’ in deliberately carrying out suicide bombings in shopping centers and busy cafes. But neither is there ‘righteousness’ in shelling what is essentially a largely defenceless settlement whose population is predominantly civilians.
If you want to start on the right foot as far as the Middle East goes, you’ve got to know this is as much a religious Jewish/Muslim problem as it is a secular Israeli/Palestinian one. It’s damn tricky and comes with a long history of animosity...just as Ishmael.
Are the Palestinians guilty of adopting an unwavering, pseudo-jihadist approach when it comes to the state of Israel?
Yes.
Are the Israelis guilty of employing an apartheid-like system and maintaining a social structure that is as much based on ethnicity as it is citizenship which provides for one hell of a garden for racists attitudes?
Yes.
Both sides are guilty of atrocity.
The problem, I feel, rests with the over-representation the Israeli lobby has not only among Western nations, but also within the Western media. Don’t underestimate the power of these things combined. Hawkins and his aggressive atheism didn’t earn best-seller status until he started towing the pro-Israeli line (a curious turn of opinion that coincided with his book debut).
Look, the issue is a heated one, and I find myself increasingly torn. I’m no fan of legislated racism as it’s practiced in Israel. But neither do I completely trust an Islamic nation which still considers the Reconquista of Spain and Sobieski’s victory at Vienna temporary setbacks of the eventual Muslim conquest of Christendom.
I guess what I’m saying is that when the chips are down, I still don’t know if I fold or am all in with either side.
Sean,
What a great post. It does, indeed, show the diversity of our fair city and the strength with which we defend various viewpoints. Jonathon is a bright, brilliant, sweet man and I have nothing but a lot of respect for him. Along the same lines, I think you do a brilliant job and I'm very glad we have you both in the Vancouver blogosphere. It is, indeed, a treat. Keep up the good work.
Sean. I really enjoyed meeting you in person (finally!). The circumstances of our shouting match=>figuring out who we were=>shaking hands and having a pleasant chat were so surreal, I was chuckling to myself for the rest of the day.
It seems we're still entrenched on opposite sides of the debate, but I'm happy that we're both still fighting for our causes in what is a very accommodating blogosphere, and in the streets as well. Only through dialogue will these big issues ever get resolved.
Happy new year to you as well. Cheers.
Johnathan hi.
Vancity guy I hear you...but that said let's not forget the elephant in the room,i.e one people are building their state on the lands of another people.Palestinians were pushed from their lands,in most part by European settlers fleeing European oppression.
The dispossessing other peoples land in an act of violence in it self,as is the ongoing enforcement(60 year with no end in sight!) of that dispossession.
Now this does not mean I support every action carried out by Palestinians or oppose every action carried out by Israeli's.But it sure as hell put's things into context.Any way you cut it,Israel is not the victim here.
Israel :
Created 4 million+ Refugees
World record for UN Violations at 69+
Killed more innocent civilians per capita 50,000+
Has Imprisoned more civilians per cap 250,000+ ,
Has rendered more civilians Handicapped per cap 50,000+
Demolished more homes than any other country 60,000+
Outlawed marriage to Non-Jews,
Destroyed 350 Christian Churches & Mosques 6 Wars in 60 years
254 km of Apartheid Wall(2 berlin walls)
562 Check Points Has Ethnically cleansed 500+ villages
Hey Sean. Not quite sure where you're getting your info. Right off the top, I'm wondering where you got the "fact" that Israel has outlawed marriage to non-Jews. I'd be happy to introduce you to some couples I know who could refute that.
I hope we can at least agree that the Palestinians are ill-served by their current leadership. As Terry Glavin writes:
"The report documents the slaughter of at least 344 Palestinians over the space of a few months by the Palestinian "leadership," which is to say Hamas and the Iz a-Din al-Qassam Brigades and their rivals among Fatah loyalists and the Palestinian Authority security forces. Thousands were injured in the bloodbath. The casualties were mainly in Gaza. The terror included summary executions, illegal arrests, torture, the deliberate crippling of prisoners by gunshots, revenge attacks, abductions, and looting. I guess it doesn't count as a Palestinian "genocide" when Hamas and Fatah are doing it."
As I wrote in my Op Ed piece, Canadians who support peace and human rights for all people must demand that Hamas give up its violence or give way to Palestinian leaders who truly want a state more than they want Jewish blood. Palestinians need an intifada against the tyranny of Hamas. When this happens, a Palestinian state at peace with Israel will be possible. That is a goal all Canadians should be in solidarity with.
Yes?
Jonathon Narvey:
I hope we can at least agree that the Palestinians are ill-served by their current leadership.
Leadership? Of what? The giant refugee camp that is Gaza? Can their leadership control their own borders, roads? If they could, why is it up to them? Shouldn't the occupying force be responsible? When you say you support peace for Israel and Palestine, you fundamentally ignore the fact that there is NO SUCH THING AS PALESTINE.
When you said the IRA comparison was apt, you ignored that fact that Northern Ireland, occupied long before we wrotte the Genevan Conventions, was a state. How can you negotiate without a country? Easy, you just say they are a bunch of terrorists who, despite being elected, it doesn't really count as democracy (BECAUSE ITS NOT A STATE). So you can conveniently have it both ways. Israel is both the victim and the aggressor? How does that work?
"Shouldn't the occupying force be responsible?" Here we get to a fundamental point that is often overlooked by those who condone what Hamas is doing:
There is no occupation of Gaza. The last Israeli troops left Gaza in 2005. They would have no reason to ever return to Gaza if Palestinian militants had not used Gaza as a launching pad for hundreds of attacks on Israeli territory.
The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank can choose to follow leaders of a group that advocates violent resistance to the last drop of their own children's blood. Or they can choose the path of non-violent resistance, through which I believe they could have already had a state by now.
Right now, the Palestinian people are perfectly aware of the consequences of the choice their leadership has made. When their leadership accepts that change will not come through firing rockets into Israeli border towns, I expect Israel and the international community will fast-track their national aspirations.
Jonathon Narvey:
There is no occupation of Gaza.
The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank can choose to follow leaders of a group that advocates violent resistance to the last drop of their own children's blood. Or they can choose the path of non-violent resistance, through which I believe they could have already had a state by now.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: There you have it! There is no occupation! Wow, so like they are free to choose whomever they like becuase its totally a true democracy, and the government of the country, (PS What is the name of this country?) is totally able to do all the things a regular government is able to do, like raise an army to defend itself without the threat of extra-judicial assassinations; GO TO WORK in a neighbouring village, cross freely into Egypt, Lebanon, Israel, and the West Bank, trade with other countries, allow its refugees back into the country, build roads and other infrastructure, vote at the UN security council, like how for example some other country is building a wall twice the length of the Berlin Wall through its territory???
Take your head out of the sand Narvey. You are blinded by pride. Blinded by nationalism. And yes, of course so is "the other side" which is what happens in a war. But you won't let this be called a war. For some reason its OK for your side to bomb hospitals because somehow its in self defense. But its not an act of war against another country because somehow its also their own country. Weird huh. So when its convenient its some other state that Israel left in 2005, but when that other state fires back, its terrorism.
Jonathon Narvey:
"As I wrote in my Op Ed piece, Canadians who support peace and human rights for all people must demand that Hamas give up its violence or give way to Palestinian leaders who truly want a state more than they want Jewish blood."
Well I'm a Canadian.
I demand that Hamas give up it's violent ways, just to bow to the big bullies that terrorize you constantly. Yes, just beg for a tiny little state you can call your own, featuring no resources or water or electricity.
Man, pull your head out of your ass. Israeli soil was touched by some rockets, and they decide to massacre public markets full of families grocery shopping. So the green grass of some peoples lawns got scuffed.
That's like a tiny kid in school who tries to take his lunch money back from a bully, and the bully breaks his legs, and dismembers his face. Get the point?
Yes, as a Canadian who wants peace everywhere, i recommend that the Palestinian people stop trying to fight back.
Just play dead.
They just want to kill you all anyways.