City
Translink to Install SkyTrain Fare Gates by 2013
Last night, when leaving the newly renovated and name-condensed Broadway-Commercial SkyTrain station, I saw a group of about eight SkyTrain police/attendants and four people being ticketed for fare evasion. But in three years, this sight could be a sign of the past as Translink plans to have fare gates up at every station by 2013, with construction starting in 2010.
Translink tells us that the time is right for fare gates, but seems to have gone back-and-forth on the issue in the past. We're told the timing is right because Expo Line stations are due for an upgrade in capacity and length (leaving me wondering when we'll be hearing this same song sung about Canada Line stations, which are pretty stunted and more costly to lengthen as the majority are underground), so installing the fare gates at the same time as these upgrades are happening does make sense, but does it make cents? (OK, that was a terribly punny segue, but I couldn't help myself).
The cost of the project is an estimated $171m (oh, estimated costs, how pliable you are) with the province kicking in $40, the feds another $30 and Translink the rest. According to a 2007 study, fare evasion was 2.5% over the total system with 1 in 100 caught and only 8% of those caught paying the fine--with a total loss of $6m a year. Who knows if these studies under- or over-estimate fare evasion. Will fare gates be a losing money operation as Translink has argued in the past, or are they a necessity of a healthy transit system in the future?
There are also the costs (monetary and social) associated with having SkyTrain cops check tickets, something I imagine to be phased down or eliminated with the fare gates. Personally, I'd rather have a fare gate than the ominous presence of cops checking my ticket. But my spidey-senses tell me that SkyTrain cops are here to stay, fare gates or no.
Meanwhile there are fare hikes planned with a start date for April 2010 that will see single fares stay the same, but will raise the cost of a booklet of 10 transit tickets from $19 to $21, or from $1.90 a ticket to $2.10. One zone passes will go up by $8.03 and two zones by $10.99. These, and other financing methods including raising the gas tax, were approved when regional mayors voted for the 130m "stabilization" option for Translink some weeks ago.
The fare gate system will use chip cards than can be reloaded by phone, web, or in person and tapped to fare gates and bus boxes for payment (and you could still pay with old fashioned change). A reloadable transit card is something I've wanted here for a long time, as I always feel bad about all the single-use paper tickets thrown away.
So, fare gates. Yay, Nay, or Other?
Until 2013, the bus riders union offers up some info on how to deal (or not deal) with that pesky $175 fare evasion fine.
photo by waferboard in the BR Flickr Pool
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I was in Paris, France last year, where they have turnstyles set up at every Metro entrance. Since I was broke I was obviously upset about having to shell out for transit fare, though I was willing to do it until a French business man saw me trying to figure out how to swipe my pass and shouted "C'est facile!" as he hopped over the gate without paying. The point is, turnstyles won't stop anybody who doesn't feel like paying from having to do so. In the words of the French business man, "it's easy" to jump over the turnstyles or squeeze through the gates, and I plan on doing that every time I ride the Skytrain. Call it civil disobedience, call it what you will, but I'm not going to spend my hard-earned cash on the Skytrain just so most of it can go into the pockets of the over-paid Translink executives!
one of the biggest problems with the lost revenue figures is the assumption that every one of those lost fares would translate into a paid one with a gate system in place. I'd wager that a large portion of those numbers come from homeless/street people who use the system simply because its so easy to board without paying, and regular folks who might hop on for a few stops in the core without paying instead of walking.
Little known fact: Translink doesn't receive a penny from fare evasion tickets. It all goes to the province. So there is no incentive for them to check for fare evaders.
A cheaper solution to gates: have staff check tickets and give fine revenue directly to Translink.
Trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Do they have too much money or something?
I guess they'll have to revamp the U-Pass system to magnetize those cards as well.
Fare gates definitely will not be the end of ubiquitous skycops. Montreal has both gates and thugs willing to tase elderly women over the $2.75 fare. Like Henry said, it's easy to hop the turnstiles. 9/10 you'll get away with it, but if someone really is watching the camera footage they've got 5 of the biggest bored jock assholes you've ever seen just waiting for a chance to power trip someone over nothing.
I'd like to see some of the plans for the faregates and how they'll be implemented into the system. Metrotown has one entrance/exit, really - it is congested at the best of time without faregates.
If they mentioned something about an overhaul of the fare system...that would be nicer.
No a good idea... people will jump over turnstyles, especially in quieter stations, and non peak times! and the lines at the busy station... oy vey!
They should spend the money on the Evergreen Line! (please)
And another thing ... how much money was the fare ticket technology/vending machine things cost for the Canada Line... they are just throw that away or sell it and they are brand new! Bad planning!
hopefully the new system will be like londons where you pay for the distance you travel, not how many arbitrary lines you cross.
I usually pay my fare but when I take the thing 3 stops (renfrew to brentwood) it doesnt seem fair to charge me 3.75 just because I crossed a line they made up. I can go all the way to waterfront for 2.50 but 1/4 of the distance the other way costs more. Where is the sense in that?
Are you people kidding me? You don't think fare evasion is a problem? I can think of at least a half-dozen people (not homeless or working poor) that deliberately ride long distances everyday on Translink without paying the fare. You know why? Because they know they won't get caught. I imagine half of the people on the 99 bus are riding without paying -- why do you think so many choose to board at the back? Gates are an absolute necessity. As far as turnstyle jumping goes, maybe Translink needs to install fully enclosed turnstyles as per Toronto's TTC. Even if they employ the waist high turnstyles, it's still plenty of incentive to pay the fare.
You honestly want to be seen jumping turnstyles? Talk about ghetto.
Robin Ryan:
Trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Do they have too much money or something?
I guess they'll have to revamp the U-Pass system to magnetize those cards as well.
Yeah, sure Robin. No problem here. No problem with millions of dollars being stolen by cheapskate assholes who don't pay their fares while working stiffs like me pay for every single ride I take. You're such a Vancouverite.
Sure, fare evasion is a problem. But so is shoplifting in most stores, and you don't see them checking everyone's bags when they leave. Why not? It would sure cut down on shoplifting, but it would also inconvenience people and the revenue recovered wouldn't cover the extra costs of employing someone to check everyone's bags.
It's the same situation with Translink. For years, they have refused to install gates because they don't make financial sense, and they still don't. If it wasn't for Kevin Falcon and his hair-brained scheme this would never be happening. It's penny-wise, pound-foolish. You need only read a few articles by transit economist Stephen Rees to understand that.
cost estimated $171m for the turnstyles....
loss of $6m a year(for lost fines, not lost fares)....
I agree with Robin!
To those who insist on not paying your fare: shame on you. Really. In my eyes it's petty theft, and claiming that you don't want to pay an executive's salary is one of the weakest cop-outs I've ever heard. You know what happens when people don't pay their fares? Fares go up, quality of service goes down. What happens to the big salaries? Absolutely nothing.
Personally, I welcome the turnstiles. And yes, you NEVER see people hop them in Toronto. It's incredibly gauche. I will be more than happy to call you out and publicly humiliate you if I see you do it.
Yes, there are problems with over compensation. No, your immature act of "rebellion" isn't doing anything to help it. But you already know that, don't you.
To Andrew P.:
You are sadly very confused. You must be a liberal.
Our societal services ought to be paid for by the people with the most money so that the people with the least amount of money can access their low-paying jobs without having to pay to get to them. See? That's just how it OUGHT to work. Of course, it doesn't, so "petty thieves" like myself are forced to hop fare gates because having to spend that paltry amount of money causes us stress and grief that you have never had to experience. Of course, we could all just shut up and ride bikes or something, but once in a while it's nice to sit back and relax. But you know what? Instead of spending a billion dollars on the roof of BC Place, we could install a government that cares for, sympathises with, and understands its citizens. This fictional and fantastical government would understand the need to make transit free and would do so. Petty theives like me, however, are the real criminals. Yeah yeah. I know. Because, you know, the real criminals aren't the ones selling off the province's resources to private interest and therefore making the cost of PUBLIC transit my problem. Ugh. Get a life.
The 99 B-Line = the 99 FREE-Line - and that's the way it ought to be.
Samson,
I understand your position and sympathize to an extent. And hey, some of the points you make are valid. It doesn't, however, justify fare evasion.
Building, maintaining and operating a meaningful transit system is expensive (to express it conservatively). While I agree that the higher-ups' salaries are ridiculous, they're still just a drop in the bucket when compared to the overall costs. Even if they made a paltry 50k for what they do, it would make virtually no difference. But that's not the point. The point is your taking from an already strapped system and trying to justify it by saying that other people make more money than you, so it's ok that you don't pay. Well, it's not OK. And that's why I'll gladly call you and your ilk out when I see it happening. That said, it appears that you're the one who needs to 'get a life', whatever that means. I think 'grow up' is more appropriate.
Oh! And though, yes, I am Liberal (for whatever that moniker is worth), it appears that your understanding of political leanings and attributed values is a little skewed.
To Andrew P.,
Allow me to clarify. I was clouded with anger and frustration earlier.
Simply put, if a government wishes to allow for the continued extraction and exploitation of the world's resources in order to derive a profit from those resources, then the profit created by the sale of those resources ought to pay for the maintenance and operation of the services utilized by those whose job it is to operate the machinery that extracts said resources.
Is this guy for real? What a herb!
Whoops. To hasty with the submit button. Looks like I'm the herb. I actually agree with your point Samson. Looks like I'm the herb!
Joe Sullivan:
No a good idea... people will jump over turnstyles, especially in quieter stations, and non peak times! and the lines at the busy station... oy vey!
They should spend the money on the Evergreen Line! (please)
The evergreen line has to be one of translink's stupidest ideas. I hope it never goes forward. They need to concentrate on high density routes, not some line that goes to butt fuck nowhere.
Sorry you seem to have such an emotional response to this Geoff and Andrew, but the reality is it doesn't make financial sense. I challenge you to prove otherwise. The recovered fare revenue won't even cover the operating costs, never mind the hundreds of millions of dollars in capital expenses.
Samson,
While not entirely incorrect, your point of view is a little naive and myopic. You're using the need for reform and better oversight (which I whole-heatedly agree with) to, again, justify not paying for a public service. I can appreciate your ability to verbalize that, but that doesn't change the fact that it amounts to little more than "Fuck you man, I'm not paying!"
Chris, my emotions are in check. And you might be right about covering of costs. But guess what? That's the cost of infrastructure. I'm suspect of the numbers given for the amount lost to fare evasion (I'd like to know how they measure that), maybe it DOES take a decade or two to pay for. Not paying because you don't like how it's all being done is lazy activism at best and delinquency at worst.
Just pay your fares! It's more convenient than walking, and cheaper and more environmentally friendly than driving or taking a cab. Is it a perfect system? No. But I challenge you to find one that is.
To add to that, if you're that unhappy with it, go do something about it. Not paying for a service you use, and ranting in the comments section of a local blog isn't exactly making you out to look like Robin Hood.
Andrew P.,
I think you are blind and lazy. Read my last post. I didn't say that it should be free. I said it should be paid for by our government as a social service.
Until then I will continue to ride for free, using it as the free public service it should be.
I just reread your post. There was no new information to be gained. You're calling me blind and lazy for not agreeing with you for not paying transit fares; a ritual that is practiced by millions and millions (some with low-paying jobs at that!) of people worldwide, every single day. Somehow you've been able to justify that to yourself with a tenuous connection between natural resources and social funding. But you're the exception, right? That's so punk.
I pay my fare every time I ride, and I don't think it should be free for anyone. In fact, considering how overcrowded the service is, I support raising fares and using the increased revenue to add more buses and trains.
I'm also looking forward to the smart card system that has been lumped in with the gate proposal. I think smart cards (like London's Oyster system) are a great idea. However, anyone who has been to London knows the newest part of the system (the Docklands Light Rail which also uses SkyTrain technology) doesn't have gates either, because they don't make financial sense.
If you want more details into the cost of gates and expected payback, you should really read Stephen Rees's writing.
Andrew P.,
You and I are obviously coming from two completely different camps of thought, because you seem to be totally unable to comprehend what I have been saying.
Once again, I'm not suggesting that transit be free. I'm suggesting that the provincial government, which makes trillions of dollars a year from licensing out the extraction of our natural resources, pay for it so that everybody can ride for free (free meaning they pay for the service through their taxes). It's called socialism. Ever heard of it? I suppose not, seeing as you're a card-carrying neo-liberal. You like to see people poorer than you suffer. It makes you smile, doesn't it, punk?
Democratic socialism also promotes the ideals that I'm ranting about.
And you think I should do something about it? Well, I do: I use transit without paying because I feel it should be provided to us as no cost by our governments with the profits made through taxes and resource extraction. I'm not so crazy, and I'm not so alone in my thinking.
By the way, civil disobedience is a valid form of protest, but you wouldn't know that because you're too dumb to realize you've been sucking the establishment's cock like a good little citizen your whole life.
It's pansies like you who are to blame for the state our society is in.
PS
It was really easy to hop the gates in London.
Two different camps of thought, indeed. You're not suggesting that transit be free; you're suggesting that you not have to pay out of pocket for something that's already heavily subsidized. You have this bizarre sense of entitlement that's so far removed from reality that it makes the fringe look pragmatic, and you've completely convinced yourself that it's normal. Your use of the term 'civil disobedience' is not rational, it's rationalizing. That's further cemented by the remainder of that statement, too.
What you're suggesting as the be-all end-all of democratic socialism (as it suits you), as nice as it would be, is complete fantasy. Complete and utter make-believe and has about as much likelihood of happening as the city commissioning a flock of flying unicorn to usher you from your subsidized housing complex to whatever low-paying job it is you work at. That is, non-existent. Welcome to reality.
PS
Using straw man and people-like-you arguments isn't helping your case either.
Quite the battle going on here between Andrew and Samson.
I just wanted to say that I think turnstiles are a better purchase than those idiotic glass bus shelters with the benches that aren't really benches but individual seats. Those were a gigantic waste of money.
The old brown wood shelters actually kept you dry, you could fit more people on the bench because they didn't have those curved metal bits and grafitti removal only required wood putty and brown paint.
The glass ones are prettier but this is Vancouver. It rains here. The rain comes in where it's open at the top and on the side so you need to keep your umbrella up anyway and you can't sit down because the seat is wet. Kind of negates the purpose of having a bus shelter, don't you think?
That doesn't even address the graffiti and vandalism issue because it's very easy to etch something permanently into the glass or to shatter a panel. Either way you have to replace a giant piece of glass to fix it. More money.
Too bad they didn't take the money they wasted on the shelters and spend it on turnstiles and other methods of preventing fare-evasion.
And I didn't understand Chris' comment to the effect that stores have a shoplifting problem but don't check customers' bags on exiting the store because of the inconvenience to everyone and the cost involved. Of course stores check everyone on the way out. That's what those gates with the loud alarms are right by the door. Kind of like turnstiles but without the bar you have to push on.
Lisa, when is the last time you saw a store use RFID anti-theft gates for an item worth less then $3?
And your argument about the shelters is completely off-topic. The shelters were payed for and maintained by CBS/Decaux, contracted by the City of Vancouver. Translink has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Andrew P.,
The reality is, you're a cold-hearted person who thinks every individual ought to pay their own way in life, and if they can't, then so be it, they fail. Why do you insist on life in society being a struggle? Surely we can all at the very leasy empathise with each other.
I like how you assume I utilise every service I am a proponent of. Funny. Fact is, I have a good paying job, and I live in a house that I own. However, I was raised in a subsidized housing co-op and I saw first hand how great they can be. You see, when poor people can afford clean housing and access to good food, they often thrive. Also, co-ops are places where communities band together to make good things happen. You don't see the average condo owner even chatting with their neighbours very often. (Please don't argue that you yourself are a condo owner and often chat with your neighbours.)
My point is, when a society takes care of its citizens, its citizens will take care of society. It's a give and take scenario. What you're suggesting creates class warfare between those who can afford and those you cannot. That's a negative place to be.
I don't think my ideals are fantasy. In fact, I believe they're highly pragmatic. And, as I said before, I'm not the only one. Read Naess, Marx, etc. They'll get you started. You'll have to turn off your television first. It's easy to do once you get used to the silence.
Look, you seem to think that the dialectic (the struggle) will create some sort of positive outcome, but I can't fathom how making people fight one another will create anything positive. If you remove some of the barriers that people face in society, what we'll see is a flourishing of community. Arts will flourish. Gardens will blossom. Thought will expand. These are not utopian ideals. Believe me, I think humanity is at its wits end. But it's because of selfish people like you that I think this way.
I work a job that enables me to come in contact with some of society's most "marginalized" people. When I began this job I thought I would see selfishness that would rival a corporate CEO's, but instead I have been witness to a kind of sharing and selflessness I never thought possible. You see, many people end up "marginalized" because they don't want to struggle. They can't see the point. Instead, they have these idealized views of a society comprised of people who help one another and share what little they have. They exchange knowledge for kindness and in return they create neighbourhoods that are flourishing with food, kindness, and love.
Anyway, I don't want to argue with you anymore, Andrew. There is no point. I'm getting too frazzled, and I'm wasting my time. Admittedly, I am having a hard time writing coherently because I am angry, and being angry leads to an early grave. All I'm asking is that you go out and experience your community. Take part in it. Maybe then you'll see the beauty in socialism, and you'll realize it's not so much a fantasy but a reality that can exist as long as you're willing to help make it happen.
Where to begin?
Here: I'm continuing this thread on the assumption that you're not a troll. If you are, you just might be the finest I've ever read.
I'm far from a cold-hearted person, as other posters in this thread and even an author or two at BR can attest to. I'm also not the clenched-fist, every-(wo)man-for-him/herself, bloodthirsty capitalist you're trying to portray me as. I believe in the virtues of a solid social safety net, and believe that certain services are a right that everyone, without exception, should have access to. In some cases, I believe that additional exceptions should be made for the marginalized population you speak of. I believe that these additional exceptions are not just for the good of the marginalized, but for society as a whole. This was never part of the argument, though; I just wanted to clarify for anyone following along at home.
Your so-called ideals are misguided if not poorly thought through. You've made a-hundred-and-one assumptions about me, my financial standing, my employment, my political leaning, and more - all of which are 100 per cent inaccurate - because I called you out on not paying transit fare, because I ridiculed you for your unquestionable stance that transit should be free (sorry, not paid out of pocket by YOU). Then you took an obviously hyperbolic statement on my part and used it as an opportunity to go on a tirade about yourself and your altruistic endeavors, completely missing the point in the process. Dude, this wasn't even a case of reading between the lines.
I'm not going to defend who I am and where I come from, nor will I attack you, call you names, or make assumptions about who you are as a person.
What I will say, as I have been saying since my first post, is that you should pay your transit fare. That you can't use some far-reaching version of a Marxist world to justify using the service and not paying. That not paying does more harm to this vital service than it does good. That not paying does more to hurt the population you claim to make a profession out of helping (interesting). That at the end of the day, it's a small price to pay. And finally, that I think you're fully aware of all this, but remain steadfast on the issue despite cognitive dissonance because if you choose to ignore it you're able to justify your behavior. To put it as I did earlier: lazy activism.
I have no doubt that you're a good person, Samson. But more than anything, this all reads as if it was written by someone perpetually stuck in their contrarian phase of adolescence.
Andrew P.,
I feel sorry for you. You're so bitter, angry, and misguided. The world you live in must be a cold, harsh place, populated by backstabbers and thieves.
I never professed to be an altruistic person. I fuck up too.
My actions are my own. I do not expect you to do as I do. But we stand on opposite sides of a dividing line. I believe that one must stand for what they believe is right, and so do you. Unfortunately, your version of "right" is materialistic, selfish, and depressing.
I'm not trying to steal from you, so you can stop watching over your shoulder. The world isn't out to get you. Lend a hand and you'll get one in return.
It's simple.
I won't explain how I feel transit should be paid for again. But you seem to miss that point of mine every time.
Case closed. You lured me in one last time, and I won't be lured back. If you need the final word, go ahead - but I refuse to continue this thread.
Your responses are so full of logical fallacies that to continue this is an exercise in frustration on my part.
By not paying for transit, you are in effect stealing from me and everyone else who pays to use the service. But as long as you're out there handing out cookies and coffee, and making enough cash from individual donations and government subsidization to buy a home in the process, you're right. Nothing's going to change your mind.
Peace.
Sampson,
While I agree with some of what you are saying, I just have a quick question.
You said it was really easy to hop the gates in london. Having been to london I dont see an easy way to hop those gates. They are like 6 feet high. I suppose you could sneak over the little card reader thing, but that sounds tough and there are usually tube employees at a lot of the gates.
Second, if you can afford to go to london, one of the most expensive cities in the world, I am sure you can afford the 2.50 for the skytrain.
I already said I dont pay all of the time because I think the zone system is BS and unfair because renfrew to downtown is cheaper than renfrew to brentwood, but I still pay a good chunk of the time. Claiming you can afford to go to london but cant afford the skytrain seems a bit weird to me.
Hi Davers,
I didn't say I can't afford to pay for the Skytrain. I said I choose not to.
And when I was in London there were no six-foot tall gates. I was able to squeeze through gates that look much like this: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/10/24/article-1080267-01F019E6000004B0-288_468x348.jpg
It's easy to travel without spending much money. Plane fare is the only thing you need to worry about. Couch-surfing and dumpster-diving takes care of the rest.
Samson:
I didn't say I can't afford to pay for the Skytrain. I said I choose not to.
Hey Samson,
Fuck you.
Signed,
The Ones Who Pay Your Way
Man! Didn't I see you guys in Copenhagen last week working on that climate change deal?
No? It wasn't you? Well with the level of pointless whining, inaction and refusal to see other perspectives, I couldn't tell the difference.
I hope you get cancer for Christmas
Hipster Designer:
Man! Didn't I see you guys in Copenhagen last week working on that climate change deal?
No? It wasn't you? Well with the level of pointless whining, inaction and refusal to see other perspectives, I couldn't tell the difference.
I hope you get cancer for Christmas
Clever! Especially the last part.
Well since we're all perfect examples of culture (of entitlement) I thought I'd get into the spirit.
Happy Holidays! I'll see y'all in chemo!
It blows me away that Translink, the province and the feds would spend $171 million to fix a problem that costs them $8 million per year. That will take only 22 years to repay itself, when they could just put that money to the Evergreen line or more buses. What a waste.
My mistake, $6 million a year. Factor in maintenance, etc., and it will never repay itself.
Samson, perhaps you should move to a socialist country.
I'm not going to get into whether socialism is right for Canada or not since that is off topic but is how it is in Canada, so either do something about it (gate hopping doesn't really count), or move somewhere that will make you happy.
Imagine if everyone paid their fares. There would be no need for the $171M gates.
Imagine if all of that money was injected directly into the public transportation system.
hackers in NYC published detailed exploits how to build your own transit card reader, and defeat the system easily. the chaos computer club in germany did the same thing.
in fact, this will make it easier to evade fare, because now I can just swipe my fake card and walk on without cops tasering me for not paying $2.25
John:
Robin Ryan:
Trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Do they have too much money or something?
I guess they'll have to revamp the U-Pass system to magnetize those cards as well.
Yeah, sure Robin. No problem here. No problem with millions of dollars being stolen by cheapskate assholes who don't pay their fares while working stiffs like me pay for every single ride I take. You're such a Vancouverite.
Is Vancouverite an insult now? I don't know, Ive been out of country a while.
It's $6M that they would collect if all those people paid. It's $171M to put in the gates. How does it make any sense to do gates? That's just bad economics, man.
PS) I don't steal rides, and neither do most people, so don't expect a big pat on the back for paying.
Boo. I wish that was all I had to say on the matter...but it's really boo to transit gates because low coast, low emissions public transit should be a human right. Boo, to those who poor bash...because you should really go study economics for a few years and get up close and personal with the whole nihilistic structure of contemporary economics. It will either make you puke or give you more articulate means of expressing your elitism and privilege. Boo to this city. Of all the cities in Canada Vancouver's one of the most high-strung and pretentious when it comes to addressing issues of social inequity. Between the over priced, inefficient transit system, and the absurd reliance on surveillance while completely failing to be creative or holistic in approaching social issues - makes this city boring.
Just wondering. I remember waaaaay back in the day about 9 or 8 years ago they were just first thinking about putting in the new ticket machines in busses and outing the old change boxes saying that it would somehow save them money in the long run from short changing or people cheating on the tickets somehow.
I'm wondering, did that ever get paid off? I remember it costing an huge amount for essentially the same damn thing, but after a little research it seemed to have costed 2.4 million. Still did we see anything come out of it? It seems now a paltry amount but wasted money is still wasted money.