Tooth and Dagger, R.I.P.

You can't be cool if you're an ESL student?

I don't know, I don't think so.

It's weird because in most cities indie publishing is such a stable and lucrative business.

You're right Sean. Only in Vancouver do tiny indy online sites fail to make it. And of course the people of Vancouver are directly responsible for that failure. It has nothing to do with the fact that very few people knew of the site in the first place.

I understand that you're upset that your site failed, and no doubt you put a lot of effort into it, but that's no excuse to be trolling and starting a flame war on BR. Your situation is neither unique nor uncommon. Startup mags fail majority of the time. Learn from your mistakes, and start anew.

Print? What is this "print" you speak of?

Sean Orr is a waste of space and a shitty writer. Maybe you should get a real job instead of complaining how people aren't enough like you.

"nobody brought ads"

now....herein lies your problem. You don't seem to understand how magazines actually work. Businesses don't "bring ads" to magazines, most especially "indie mags" that nobody has ever heard of.

In fact, it doesn't matter if your magazine is some indie rag or a corporate heavyweight, each and every successful magazine employs an army of ad sales reps that hustle day and night to sell ad space.

of course...all of this valued information is readily available to anyone whom is actually interested in runnng a publication of relative quality.

Regarding print journalism being obsolete: that would be one thing if it occurred singularly, but in combination with the myriad of art galleries and music venues forced to close, the bad taste and douchebaggery that runs rampant in this town remains relevant. You not hearing about Tooth and Dagger is a dis to you, not me. As far as me being a shitty writer, at least I get my point across. Oh, and attach my name to them.

Come on now, Sean. I fail to see how not hearing about Tooth and Dagger is a 'dis to me'. Let's not be petty and elitist now.

I went to the T&D website a few times before, and do you know what? I couldn't get past the first page. Why? None of the front cover posts had any paragraph spacing. They were just Kerouacian blocks of text... very difficult to read. That simple formating issue alone was enough to put me off as a first time reader.

The site failed, and blaming mainstream Vancouver won't bring it back. And I can't understand your attack: you blame advertisers for refusing to advertise on T&D, but why would they want to advertise there in the first place when you seem so intent or limiting the site's appeal to a select few?

"You not hearing about Tooth and Dagger is a dis to you, not me."

Yes, I obviously live in a "douchebaggian" cultural vacuum because I didn't hear about someone's fledgling indie magazine. Oh poor me...I guess my membership application to Vancouver's anti-scene will be revoked due to my lack of exposure to the requisite agitprop.

It is very telling that Lenova was only aware of T&D as a website, for numerous reasons. For all that are unaware, T&D was actually a print publication. You are right to have a) never heard of it, or b) believe that it only existed online because it was the most poorly distributed publication of all time. It is understandable that you may have cost constraints and whatnot, but in this day and age, what is the point of starting a ridiculously small (in size and in distribution) free publication that nobody can ever find in the first place? All you have to do is start a website. It's FREE! If T&D had any real interest in having their voices heard, they could have started a website a year ago, and by now they'd probably have a nice little readership. Instead the URL has been completely abandoned.

Blaming Vancouver for the death of this publication is also a very sad way to look at it. The paper was boring, plain and simple. Nobody ever saw it anywhere, and even if they did, after they picked it up there was never any incentive to try again. Failure on many levels.

Oh dear. Vancouver. Stand at the back. Fold your arms. Buy one beer. Go home.

Top 10 Things I learned from Sean Orr.

1) Everybody sucks but Sean.
2) Nobody can ever be as cool as him.
3) He is into shit that is way beyond our mainstream tastes.
4) Everybody sucks but Sean.
5) Vancouver is a worse place to be than Somalia.
6) People actually want to read his vitriol-laced gibberish about how the APC are basically the coolest kids on the playground.
7) His ventures don't work out. But not because he got into one of the hardest businesses in the world and obviously did a crap job at marketing his publication.
8) Everybody sucks but Sean.
9) ESL students are lame. (Never thought of Beyond Robson as a racist site, but hey, you learn something new every day)
10) Having to move back in with your parents at Sean's age is a very realistic possibility. Especially when you're a rage-fueled tool who talks tough behind a computer.

Insecure much?

Get paid much? Lol.

Awesome, now I'm racist. But for the sake of argument, please tell me how ESL students are in any way cool? I'm not talking about immigrants, I'm talking about the kids that come here, learn English, then leave, thereby further contributing to the transient nature of the city.

Oh, and Tooth and Dagger wasn't my venture.

Oh, and who's the one talking tough behind a computer? Unless of course, your real name is Wang Patrol.

Okay real name. And yeah, what you said sounds pretty racist to me. What's wrong with people coming to Canada to learn, spending lots of money, and then leaving? I'm assuming, by your logic, we shouldn't allow foreign students into Canada unless they stay here? I don't even think Lou Dobbs would advocate that. Surely your APC cronies aren't a bunch of economic protectionists that want to put strict limits on immigration. Surely not. Homeless good, ESL students bad.

You're just mad because they have money and are doing something with their lives. You're all complaints and no solutions, Sean. No wonder you always talk about how poor you are. Oh yeah... You don't have a real job. Forgot about that.

And by the way, Wang Patrol is my MIDDLE name.

Sean, you have to at least admit that how you write isn't exactly inclusive or very revealing even. All you really ever do is ridicule, criticize, and banter in slang from absolutely no moral authority but with an attitude that borders even on that of the 'Yuppies' you revile so much.

That being said, you've got a 100% right to your opinion and how you express it is your business (until you make it public like on BR mind you) But, as someone much smarter than both you and me once said, opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one, so until you 1)Publish a real piece of journalistic literature, 2)lobby Victoria for ANYTHING instead of just taking snipes on BR or 3)martyr yourself for the DTES, don't take yourself so seriously.

P.S. I might not agree with you most of the time Sean, but jeez don't put yourself out there for ridicule with posts like these. That's just asking for it man.

ESL students are cool because they know how to drink.

Anyway, now I'm sure you're trolling: "Oh, and who's the one talking tough behind a computer?" Haha, everyone on the internet last time I checked. What are you going to do with a name, look him up in the phone book?

Print is dead. Best of luck with all your future endeavors, etc..

"what you said sounds pretty racist to me. What's wrong with people coming to Canada to learn, spending lots of money, and then leaving? I'm assuming, by your logic, we shouldn't allow foreign students into Canada unless they stay here?"

Where do get this from? Seriously? Its racist to think that ESL kids aren't exactly the hippest kids in town? I mean, I basically called out the entire population of Vancouver, but by the saying the ones that don't live here don't exactly perpetuate the long term 'hipness', you know; that they don't form underground art scenes and obscure noise bands and put Vancouver on the map as a producer of a internatially recognizable cultural identity, by saying that I'm racist? Man, I love them. They are super cute. I wish they would stay. What? That's racist?

And where did this come from that I don't have a job? Besides, the more you click the more I make. I also don't care if print is dead. That wasn't really the point.

I like reading Sean's stuff daily.

You guys are funny. A journalists job (whether he gets paid or not) is simply to start conversations, to inspire discussion and the exchange of opinions and ideas. By that measure Sean is one of the most succesful journalists in town. Despite the fact that I think this is one of sean's silliest and most difficult to defend posts I still think Wang Patrol should be hosed down with his own mothers scalding shit.

"A journalists job (whether he gets paid or not) is simply to start conversations"

I don't think this is quite true at all, your vision of journalism seems to be that of a blogger’s, where reality is buried under a multiplicity of (often misinformed) opinions. Good journalism is more about the facts and the story than the journalist's ability to incite dialogue.

Clarity, understanding and an honest objective narrative is what defines the true grind of good, unselfish, non-egoist journalism.

And since when is print media dead? Where do you people get your information? blogs? print media is merely evolving. Many newspapers are posting record profits, year after year, and the same goes for many magazines, recently launched and well-established or otherwise.

Honestly, Sean, I've been getting pretty tired of the smug superiority on the morning brew. I appreciate all the links but I usually just skim over the commentary because it usually makes me wince. This post may be the coup de grace for me as a reader of BR. I'm interested in knowing about what goes on in Vancouver. This would have been a great opportunity to talk about the indie media in the city, maybe interview the founder, give a little background on T&D for those who have never heard of it - you know, journalism. Instead I hear adolescent whining about suckholes and douchebaggery, yuppies and hippies and frat boys. Frankly, Sean, if this is what BR is about now, I am just not interested in reading it.

Here is a thought. Vancouver is more than being cool, more than creating artistic movements, more than bitterness between rich and poor. There are two million lives being lived in the GVRD. Many of the vast majority who seem to offend you by their very existence are, you might be surprised to find out, human beings. Many are in fact quite interested in supporting local artists and publications, but do not have time or inclination to follow everything and immerse themselves in the local scenes and develop the cultured tastes that are necessary to appreciate a lot of the more esoteric stuff. Artists like Feist are successful in part because they are accessible. A lot of bands (and print publications) could learn from her, or others like her. She didn't build a fan base by spitting on the people who weren't (yet) her fans. Success comes from opening up to and embracing your surroundings, not building walls around them.

If you don't like this -- if you think the crowds should come to you and your creative friends, and that you shouldn't have to sacrifice your own artistic vision in order to make something that people actually want -- then you are of course free to stick to your guns. But if your voice starts to echo a bit because the room is emptying out, and you are tempted to lash out at the people who turn away, remember that these people don't owe you anything; the relevance of your statement is for them to judge, not you.

I feel bad for Tooth and Dagger. I actually liked it. I knew somebody who worked on it, too. Perhaps with better execution they would have reached a larger audience and might have succeeded. But you can't deny that it was very narrowly targeted -- I only ever saw print versions in a few cafes in Mount Pleasant, and their website was poorly designed and months out of date. To suggest that the rest of Vancouver should be blamed for not supporting a publication that failed to reach out or connect with them is shallow and immature.

This is fun! Come on! Admit it! (except for the racism thing, that kind of sucks. What race is ESL exactly?)

"Many are in fact quite interested in supporting local artists and publications, but do not have time or inclination to follow everything and immerse themselves in the local scenes and develop the cultured tastes that are necessary to appreciate a lot of the more esoteric stuff".

Exactly.

"Artists like Feist are successful in part because they are accessible. A lot of bands (and print publications) could learn from her, or others like her. She didn't build a fan base by spitting on the people who weren't (yet) her fans. Success comes from opening up to and embracing your surroundings, not building walls around them".

Exactly. I want to be challenged, and in turn want to challenge. I think I've managed to do that. BR isn't all about me. There will be more posts like this and this. More feel good, unpretentious, easy stuff so sit tight.

Sean, I think you're smart as hell, but hip vs. unhip is a quality/class/life/art distinction that is more than a little dubious, racial overtones or not. The internet is awash with "tastemakers" trying to call out people who don't shop/listen/look/think where they do.

Personally, I enjoy listening to people who talk about what they love... without making the assumption that everything else sucks. That's not artistic freedom or independence.

That's being a teenager.

"Sean Orr is a waste of space and a shitty writer. Maybe you should get a real job instead of complaining how people aren't enough like you."

Nailed it.

this is the most activity/discussion i've seen on this site in months :p

Meg, Anon, and Sarah, you are my heroes. Let's all go out for beers.

hey, where did Anon and Sarah's comments go?

Yes, where did they go.

Paul, perhaps you can repost them?

I didn't save them or anything. *poof*.

"Exactly. I want to be challenged, and in turn want to challenge. I think I've managed to do that. BR isn't all about me. There will be more posts like this and this. More feel good, unpretentious, easy stuff so sit tight."

This is Sean's response to an extremely well written and cutting criticism by a tactful and intelligent comment.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is Sean Orr sucking ass when faced with a reader that's smarter than he is. More be nice, pretend your'e light-hearted, suckhole stuff from Sean so just sit tight.

wow, I didn't think Beyond Robson would censor comments except when they were offensive. Were those somehow offensive? Or were they just too close to the truth

They were using the publishers email address. So by virtue of using someone elses email address they were deleted. I dunno, just use bumbum@bumbum.com

That's not true I used the address terminaloutsider@gmail.com.

"This, ladies and gentlemen, is Sean Orr sucking ass when faced with a reader that's smarter than he is. More be nice, pretend your'e light-hearted, suckhole stuff from Sean so just sit tight." No, Paul said that artists should be more accesible, and I think the opposite. how is that sucking ass?

When forced into an intellectual corner and faced with an argument that the adolescent cannot mentally cope with, a common defense mechanism it to adopt and air of nonchalance and employ a "hey man, it's cool" way of reasoning rather than any sort of defensible rebutal.

Unsurprising given the fact that most often what forced the child into the proverbial corner in the first place was immature whinning, thus not much can be expected.

But, nevertheless, as far as developing a sense of oneself and figuring out just how low they are in regards to the voices of reason, this is an important step in the development of a child..er...20 something's development?

At this point I'm just fanning the flames because you obviously hate me, but I was in no way adopting an attitude of nonchalance. I do think its pretty funny though. I mean, I think you're funny. But I stand by everything I said. I'm probably going to stop replying though becuase its taking up a lot of energy. I suppose thats a cop out, but I have better things to do, believe it or not. I've got to go write some songs about ESL students and stuff.

Sean - I don't hate you, and I don't think QT does. We're just frustrated to see all the venom that you've put on the front page. I was hoping to have some acknowledgment from you that by slagging most of Vancouver you are being petty and unfair, and moreover that what you wrote reflects poorly on this website and also the community that it reports on (i.e., us, your readers). I am disappointed that you don't seem to agree.

I ca agree that it was venomous, spitefill, smug, arrogant, and hateful. But I don't think it was uncalled for. Should I do a post where I list all the things I love about Vancouver?

Well, Sean, I don't know. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism. But the hateful stuff you were saying served no purpose except to get everybody riled up. It's divisive and it will turn away readers who believe they live on the wrong side of the wall you're building. If you keep it up there will be only a small crowd left here at BR and sooner or later even the morning brews will start to echo.

I don't hate you Sean, far from it. But what's coming out here in these rants and posts are, I think, the seeds that you have sown.

For a while I thought I was the only reader who thought you came off as the kid who was too cool for school and found out how to blog. But you continually rag on stuff and speak from a point of authority you really have no right to. You assume that your readership are vapid morons, conforming to some yuppie driven agenda, and that you and your asanine comments alone serve as the sole dissenting voice.

Grow up.

Keep on keepin on brother, but write stuff worth reading. Yes, we're the unwashed masses, but maybem, just maybe, there's a few readers out there a little wiser, and a little more experienced that yourself. If you're the artist you claim to be, use all this feedback as a catalyst of growth.

BR is sold out of cheap-laughs, time to write some real stuff. (Which, I know, is tough to come up with everyday, so maybe Morning Brew is better served twice a week with real content.)

Either way. Good luck

High five, QT.

I'm bummed that Tooth and Dagger went under, but I'm not surprised. As a few people (who I don't necessarily want to associate myself with) pointed out, it was very narrowly-targeted (admittedly, to me and people like me) and the website was terrible. I don't really see how it was hard to find. I saw it everywhere. But I guess I live in and hang out in the targeted areas.

I guess what it amounts to is that people who are of a like mind to myself don't constitute enough of an audience in this city to maintain venues, publications, or even a viable scene.

I feel a little trapped. The suckholes are closing in, but I don't speak enough French to get a decent job in Montreal, it's cold as fuck everywhere in this country but here, and I don't have enough marketable skills to successfully uproot myself, anyway. The ship's going down and I don't have a lifeboat.

I agree with QT. I was fishing for some recognition that you were just kidding, or half-kidding, or something! An indication that you had some recognition that you were writing satire. And then you disavowed any interest in the subtleties of print media, and THEN failed to address my perfectly valid point about ESL being fun to drink with.

Controversy is great fun, (I hadn't read BR in months until i accidentally clicked on my bookmark and saw this), but playing it off like hey man, comments equal cash and it's all about gettin paid, well that's pretty a weak defense. Is your indignation righteous or not? I can't tell.

"McGoff didn't have much use for modern Vancouver. According to him it had a sort of Pango Pango quality mingled in with sausage and mash and generally a rather puritan atmosphere. Everyone fast asleep and when you prick them a Union Jack flows out of the hole. But no one of a certain sense lives there. They merely as it were pass through. Mine the country and quit. Blast the land to pieces, knock down the trees and send them rolling down Burrard Inlet..."
-Frank Lowry, Under the Volcano.

tooth and dagger had the stench of death on it from the get-go. there are a multitude of reasons for that.

1. the weekly market is owned by the georgia straight. for better or worse, it always will be. and it is taking all the ads with it. the westender has devoured the scraps by providing superficial, ad-friendly content. there isn't much left over for any weekly publication in this city.

2. up-start alternative papers are always full of creative writers, artists and designers - none of which have any business sense. worse still, none of them want to hustle and sell ads full time. everyone wants to do the music interview, breakfast review, sam sullivan hit-piece, but no one wants to get dirty. selling ads is hard and you have to be a whore.

3. vancouver hipsters/art/indy kids are cold and fickle. don't blame the esl students or the granville jocks. it's the scene itself. it's full of swallow, superficial kids who will desert you the second something better comes along and have no real concept of how difficult (and important) it is to put a newspaper together.

4. tooth and dagger didn't offer anything original to the city. aside from a few articles, most of the content could be found in other publications/websites. it was almost identical to the version of terminal city that folded (however, obviously only/nerve didn't fare much better). to succeed in this market you will have to offer something truly unique. you will have to be bolder, brasher and louder than tooth and dagger ever was.

side note: it's incorrect to blame to death of print on tooth and dagger's downfall. dailies are dying. weeklies are surviving. (however, they are doing so by producing more ad-friendly content.)

like i said. tooth and dagger was dead from the get-go. it's unfortunate, but it's important to understand why to keep it from happening again. this city desperately needs some alternative media. it's an incredibly daunting task (as i'm sure the tooth and dagger crew would testify to). hopefully the next venture/project will succeed.

What a friggin joke. You fail and blame others? Want to stop replying coz it takes up too much energy. Maybe that's why it failed. I actually never heard of it. Great job advertising it. How can you blame some one else for your failure when you obviously did not take the steps to mitigate it. It is nice to have a voice, however rancid it maybe. GTFU. Figure that one out and stop blaming others for your short comings.

the most interesting thing read in this entire thread:

3. vancouver hipsters/art/indy kids are cold and fickle. don't blame the esl students or the granville jocks. it's the scene itself. it's full of swallow, superficial kids who will desert you the second something better comes along and have no real concept of how difficult (and important) it is to put a newspaper together.

so true, not only shallow and superficial, but also judgmental and insecure of each other. the "hipster art scene" is not a real community. it's a school dance where everyone stands around talking about how much better they are than others. and it's unfriendly, for the most part. beyond robson is no different from that, but, that's why i've always liked reading it. it's whiny and insensitive like the rest of vancouver, but it does provide important acknowledgment of things that need to be addressed. it also reminds me that everyone in vancouver thinks they are better than anyone else, no matter what scene or non-scene you consider yourself part of.

as for T&D. i'm saddened by the loss, of course, as i am saddened by the loss of any small, indie aspiration, and i tried, but i just couldn't get into it. and Sean's rant above was well-written, and enjoyable (even if i don't agree with it all... for instance, i like Feist and see the benefits of yoga... do i need to prove how non-mainstream i can be as well?), but for a journalist, it was just too emotional. beyond robson dishes out the criticism, i'd like to think it can move forward with accepting some as well.

Diagnosis for BR in 2008:

"Beyond Repair"
"Beyond Respect"
"Blogger's Reave""
"Born Retarded"
"Bullshit Response"
"Boring Rehash"
"Buttheads Reproducing"
"Bum Rants"
"Boredom Ressurected"
"Brokeback Remembered"

What's your take people?

Just for the record - as the publisher of BR I stand by Sean. While his comments may have justifiably been interpreted as insensitive or poorly worded, my belief is that they were not a result of any racist or xenophobic beliefs or tendencies that Sean holds.

Sean has a certain style of writing and he likes to provoke discussion - that was the purpose of this post; and hopefully, for better or worse, some constructive dialogue took place here.

Also, for those of you lamenting the current state of BR, I just want to let you know that the reason the MB has been 90% of the content on the site lately is because we've had a complete turnover in our contributing team. I, personally, was not happy with the quality of the editorial over the last number of months and the efforts or level of commitment from the team that was in place.

The good news is that we've recently added four new writers (and are in discussions with many more) so look out for more variety of posts on BR in the near future.

This is kind of rad and kind of retarded.

It's cool to see people in any kind of actual discussion,
But we should try to discuss the root of Sean's topic rather than his writing style or delivery. Sean is right, not neccesarily about the reasons for the
demise of T&D, but who cares? This city is rapidly losing touch with it's independent community and those involved in it are becoming less and less interested in doing anything with any balls.

I think a big problem right now in Vancouver is that nobody is interested in
doing anything serious. Musically, punk music for the most part has turned into a bunch of ironic art/fashion/noise projects. Lyrically nobody is speaking through they're music at all. That used to be a huge part of the Vancouver music scene, outspoken local bands. If you're reading this and you're in a band and you have opinions about this city or anything else you think might benefit the people around you, speak them!! Stop shouting nonsense over atonal key board riffs, irony is dead. Same goes for writers, artists, etc...

Fuck being accesible. Be confident, hard working and well educated about what your saying and DOING and you can get anybody to listen, even ESL students!
That's how change happens.

But as a side note, lots of the replies to this article we're dead on too,
Sean should be proud to have such intelligent readers.
Even if they think he's an asshole!!

Sorry for going off topic a bit.

Keep pissing people off Sean, seems like the only way to get anybody thinking these days..oh yeah and 'Working Title' is fucking punk.

Shit dude. Nice one Malcolm.

I think a fair summary of this thread would be:

1) Sean was unjustified in laying blame on mainstream Vancouver for the failure of T&D, and not on a lack of marketing.

2) The infamous ESL comment was neither racist nor xenophobic, and was blown out of proportion by some of the readers.

3) However, Sean stoked the flames here. Advice: ignore the name calling, focus of the more intelligent posts. This entire diatribe could have been avoided with some thoughtful comments, instead of everyone just flying off the handle (keyboard).

4) There seems to be some massive confusion here about the difference between a journalist and a blogger. BR is not a news organization, it's a blog. Sean is not a journalist, he is a blogger.

5) BR's making changes to its line-up. Whether it's worth the wait remains to be seen.

The sad thing is that anyone would be critical of a genuine, passionate response and not –regardless of their views– bemoan the loss of another voice in the wilderness. It seems only ignorance, insecurity and a near complete lack of compassion –not to mention total or relative anonymity– would lead anyone to make any of the insensitive comments they have bothered to post here. Clearly you must have a sibling whose Barbie or Ken doll head you can pull off.

"I think a big problem right now in Vancouver is that nobody is interested in
doing anything serious. Musically, punk music for the most part has turned into a bunch of ironic art/fashion/noise projects. Lyrically nobody is speaking through they're music at all.

Stop shouting nonsense over atonal keyboard riffs."

Quoted for truth. Preach it, Malcolm.

Gee what a surprise. A bunch of lame ass neo cons attacking Sean anonymously.
The guy is hardly a racist!!
Get yer Fraser Institute loving troll heads out of your asses.
It is TIRED.

THIS is so Vancouver.

Just arguing about how crappy each other is for the city and its scenes, friendliness, social environment, etc.

Vancouver: Against everything and for nothing.

Well I for one am not for nothing. I'm against it.

60!

East Van girl,
What is tired is comments like "A bunch of lame ass neo cons attacking Sean anonymously".....Is East Van girl your real name or is it your anonymous blog comment name? If you are going to comment about people commenting anonymously, PUT YOUR FUCKING NAME ON IT. How lame.

If the "vast chunk of the population" currently ignoring the cool kids suddenly started to care, would they still be cool? I bet if the yoga geeks, Feist-lovin' yuppies and tattooed snowboarders Orr reviles suddenly started to show up at Orr-approved gigs and art shows, all we'd hear about is how the _____ scene is so over, or ______ sold out.

But here’s the big headscratcher: after lamenting Vancouver at large’s lack of support for hip shit, Orr states in the comments that art is supposed to be inaccessible. This betrays a strong sense of entitlement: a desire for success and recognition without commiserate compromise. Unrealistic at best; hypocritical at worst.

Finally, I guarantee that at this moment in New York, Montreal and Berlin, some struggling 20-something artiste is writing an angry blog rant about how shitty their city is and how unfair it is that their “scene” is ignored by the unwashed masses. It’s a fucking cliché: “Everyone are assholes: why don’t they love me?”

Dear Sean,

Marry me.

Well, I'd probably have to meet you, then I'd probably have to get it okayed by my girlfriend, but in lieu of all that, Yes. I do.